transcription, Episode 6:

White Noise (Clemon courtney iii)

september 26, 2019

Listen to Clemon’s episode (available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Himalaya and Google Play) and hear his full story from our ‘Lost in Translation’ 2018 live show.

STORY CLIP 1

Clemon Courtney III: Okay, I have an announcement to make: I am no longer accepting applications for white friends. Hear me out, hear me out. Okay, so I grew up going to all black Catholic school on the south side of Chicago and I was a fucking nerd, but that actually paid off for me, because I ended up getting this academic scholarship to go to school on the East Coast.

I've always been a real ‘glance before you leap’ type, so I'm like, "Oh man, come on, I got this.” I watched a 45-minute promotional video. I can totally handle moving to another place that I've, for four years, that I've never even seen.

I'm on campus, I'm like, “What...where the fuck are the street lamps? Is that white dude wearing dreads with an ankle bracelet? What the fuck is ‘hacky sack’? What is this place?” And suddenly it hits me -  Clemon, this place is white. For four years. I had amazing instructors, but I feel my true education was in engaging, charming, and disarming whiteness. So by the time I made it to Shanghai having mostly white friends, I was like an expert level white whisperer. 

Clara Davis: Today's episode features Clemon Courtney III. Clem is in rare company, having lived in Shanghai for over 13 years now. He's a writer, a teacher, and an entrepreneur with his own company, The Right Place . He told his story back at our ‘Lost in Translation’ show in the spring of 2018. It was a story which made some people ask questions, made some people uncomfortable, and made some people come up and tell him just how much they could relate.

We love getting Clem into the studio to talk more about one of the more memorable tales to hit the Unravel stage. A fair warning to our listeners: this episode features explicit language and racial slurs that may not be suitable for young listeners. We are really grateful that Clem was willing to speak this candidly with us, but we do wanna let you know in advance as some of the language here is more triggering than our previous episodes. We hope you enjoy this conversation with Clem. 

INTERVIEW

Clara Davis: You came to Shanghai 13 years ago. That's a crazy amount of time. What brought you out here?

Clemon Courtney III: Well, I studied Chinese in high school, so my mom brought me home a pair of chopsticks when I was nine and she taught me how to eat Chinese food with them. And on the packaging was this really cool writing. I'll never really forget it - red packaging, gold and black like calligraphy.

And I thought it was so cool that I thought to myself, one day, I'm gonna be able to read what's on this package. So when I went to prep school, they had a really advanced language program. They offered 10 languages and Chinese was one of them, so it was a no-brainer for me to pick Chinese, which is funny 'cause in 1996, everybody was like, “What are you gonna do with Chinese?” And now it's like what can't you do with it? So it's really cool. But I was not that forward thinking. I just thought the writing was cool. 

CD: It was just about those chopsticks. 

CC: That’s it, just about the chopsticks. 

CD: I love that. I don't really feel like I meet that many people whose origin story to Shanghai reach that far back into their childhood. What job took you here first? Did you come on a whim or did you have something lined up?

CC: Well, I was not brave enough to come here without a job, like no way. 

CD: Stupid? Brave? I'm referring to myself.

CC: Yeah, I was not brave enough for that. I'm always really in awe of people who can do that 'cause I'm like, “What do you do for money?” So in my case...

CD: Not have much. 

CC: Right, exactly. But now I get to tell cool stories too,  like I came here with 250 dollars in my pocket, but I already had a job waiting on me though. I started teaching kindergarten. I got three job offers. One was in this really rural town in a village and they were like, "Oh you can stay here, but the catch is...if you room and board...is like you have to sleep in the room with the children.” And I was like, "Oh hell no, I'm not doing that.” Grown man sleeping with like small children... not interested. My interest in this job and giving back just went from 85% to 0% very quickly. And then one was in Beijing and the other Shanghai, and I chose Shanghai, because I thought it was the city where I would experience the least amount of culture shock. 

CD: Even though you were passionate about those chopsticks, you didn't wanna feel the max amount of rural China village culture shock? 

CC: I think I knew myself well enough to know like do you have a McDonald’s?

CD: Jump into the shallow and...

CC: Right, exactly. 

CD: But I can only imagine how different Shanghai must have felt 13 years ago.

CC: Yeah, for Western food, I had to walk at least like 20 minutes. I lived in a really...like the suburbs actually of Shanghai...Xinzhuang. And that was an experience, but I loved that area,  'cause it was like a really good introduction. I moved here and I'm like, "Oh, don't even bring your iPod, just really get immersed in the culture. And by...after a month of hearing the noises of Shanghai...

CD: Who needs an Ipod? 

CC: Whew, I did for sure, for sure. 

CD: Okay, so we're gonna get into the story that you told, because that was a favorite of so many. You first wrote this piece on Medium or something like it, and a mutual friend showed it to me. And I think she’s who sort of asked if you'd be interested in converting it into a story. 

CC: Right.

CD: Can you talk to us a little bit about the difference between writing and telling that story?

CC: I think I always use a lot more flowery prose when I write, but you can't really tell a story that way, if it's just like a natural, organic story telling of it. So you have to...I had to rewrite it as a speech almost and then memorize the general...the bullet points of what I wanted to say and convey in the emotional beats. All of the stuff that goes into making it a compelling story to be told.

CD: Yeah, I felt like when I was reading your story versus listening to your story, there were definitely some intentional changes. Do you think that that was purposeful, or was that kind of also a little bit about ‘spur of the moment’?

CC: There were very few ‘spur the moment’ sections.

CD: Good for you. 

CC: I don't think you realize how nervous I was to even be talking to that many people. I couldn't eat the whole day, so there weren't a lot of flourishes I was really confident to add. There were a few maybe small things but not like big ticket items there or anything.

The biggest thing I think was probably the change in the line: I'm no longer accepting applications for white friends. Because my title for the Medium piece is “Why I'm No Longer Accepting White Applicants for Friendship,” which is kind of a mouthful to get out. So I practiced how I wanted to deliver it, 'cause again, I was so nervous and I wanted to knock it out of the park the first time. So I worked with my friend John who's a public speaking trainer, and he said, "That line's really clunky. You gotta do something with it, so you should make it more like a declaration.” And I thought, okay, I like the sound of the firm punch, so I like that. 

CD: It was a gut punch.

CC: I’m happy to hear that. I’m glad it worked. 

CD: I feel like when you opened it and closed with it, you could kind of hear the air go out of the room. Was that intentional? 

CC: Definitely, definitely, and I think...I don't know if you remember my hugging you...before I told the story. Because as white people go, you're one of the whitest types of people like...

CD: Go on.

CC: No, no no, hear me out. So you're a red-head. You don't get much whiter than a red-head, right? 

CD: Okay true. 

CC: So I thought, okay how funny would it be for me to hug Clara and then say, “By the way, I'm no longer talking to white people anymore” and they’re like, “But you just..”.

CD: “But you just gave her that great hug. Does she know that?”

CC: Right, right 'cause you even said something like, "Oh, hugging before the story...” Or you said something really quickly like you were taken aback by it, but you thought it was pretty funny.

CD: I don't know if I told you this afterwards or not, but it was definitely a very talked about story. I overheard two people at a party arguing about it. One of our producers also overheard or kind of was confronted with an argument about it at a dinner.

CC: Oh wow, I'm so interested to know what the argument. 

CD: Yeah, it's a little bit crazy. I guess I'm first curious if you were expecting that type of reaction. 

CC: Yes, yes, for sure. And I'm really kind of happy to hear you say that that happened. It's meant to make people uncomfortable in a way like I try to use so much of the rhetoric to evoke an emotion in the audience that would be like - okay, understand the issue, as I see it or as a person of color might see it. 

STORY CLIP 2

Clemon Courtney III: In retrospect, the first group of core white friends I made here was due to an encounter with a racist. My early 20’s here were a blur, right? So but I know I spent a lot of time in a really unapologetic dive bar called I Love Shanghai. And this really ugly American type came, and he was a regular there. And we never really talked and I never gave him much thought. But one day, he pulled me aside and he was like, “Hey man, like I don't know if you noticed, but I've been kind of cold to you.” And I'm like, “Yeah...I mean I guess.” And he's just like, “Yeah, well...I guess, you seem like a nice guy, but I don't like black people.”

So I sit at this table full of future white friends, and I have to recount the story. And shortly after, he comes over and tries to initiate a conversation with them, and he is slapped with a stony silence, a resounding shun from the group, and I think to myself, man, these are some white people I can fuck with.

Over the years, we get closer. But there was always this one dude who was part of the group, like more of an acquaintance to me than a friend who, I will henceforth refer to as this mother fucker. This mother fucker always set off my whitey sense, which is a lot like spidey sense, but it mostly serves to alert non-whites, racist whites that may be in the vicinity, right? So eventually, when they told me...the mutual friends told me that he said some racist things, I was like, "Yeah well, you know, not surprised, right?” And because I was so used to dealing with white micro-aggressions, even I wasn't as bothered as I should have been.

The important thing to remember about this mother fucker is that he had his own education company, and at the same time I was a rather talented English teacher working my way up Shanghai’s education ladder, and the same white friends would be like, “I wonder why he doesn't hire you.” And I'm like, “Really? You have to wonder? Is that something you need to wonder?”

Clara Davis: This wasn't the first time Clem had encountered explicit racism or the baffled reactions from friends who didn't seem to understand. I talked to him about the message he wanted people to take away from his story and the reactions the story generated after he published it and after he told it on the stage.  

INTERVIEW

Clara Davis: If there was one thing that you wanted people in the audience to take away from that story, what was the message to you?

Clemon Courtney III: To me, it was to think about what it means to be an ally to a person of color, if you really care about people of color. If, you know...do you expect them to navigate situations with racism, casual or otherwise, or your casually racist parents or relatives or friends, with this sort of stoicism? Like “Oh, it's okay. They’re just a product of their time.”

CD: “It’s just the way they are.” 

CC: Yeah, yeah, it's this whole idea that we don't even get to be righteously angry about it and be like, "Listen if you can't ride for me like a friend all the time, then why are we friends?” I wanted white people to ask themselves: Am I deserving? Am I being an ally in a way that makes me deserving of friendships with people of color, period? 

Someone came up to me...a white guy came up to me after, and he was determined to argue me down about what I'd written. He was really pleasant about it and we had an exchange, but there was one part where he said, "Oh I've adopted six African kids” and I was like, "Okay, yeah I mean, that's good for you.” 

And then he was like, "Well to me, they're blacker than you are.” And I was like, “Wait, let me stop you there and make sure that you know that you're not an arbiter of blackness for anyone  as a white person. Or even if you're black, you don't get to determine what makes a person like blacker or not.”

CD: What was the premise of his argument that he confronted you with? 

CC: I think he was trying to parlay that into a point of like... I should be careful about the way I was speaking about it, like I felt like maybe...I knew there would be maybe some white people in the audience that felt like I didn't give white people a fair shake.

But after you hear the story, which is the power of stories, hopefully it made the white people who may have been uncomfortable, think about why I was wrong, because if you investigate the story, it's hard to be like, “Well, he's wrong to feel that way.”

CD: I'm curious about the scope of reactions you got both from posting the piece in written form and then telling the story live.

CC: Actually, most of my friends for a long time, as I mentioned in the piece that I wrote, were white. So I feel like a big part of it was...I tried not to take it easy on myself either, like okay, well you did kind of put your own culture, your own identity on the back burner to be able to better assimilate into this group. 'Cause when you go to prep school, you're like the only one..I think there were maybe 50? No, there were probably about 80 to 100 black people...

CD: Out of?

CC: Out of 1100 to 1200 students. Yeah, most of the time, you're the only one in the room. You get a few micro-aggressions. I never had anything too terrible. There are a few stories you can...we can all tell I think, going to school in a situation like that. But you do have to...you learn pretty quickly that you have to assimilate or people would be like, “Why are you talking like that?” And when you change to be more like standard English, people are like, “Oh, you're so articulate, you speak so well.” And you're like, oh god, you can't win for losing.

CD: I don't know how exactly to...or this question, but did you...were you surprised then to encounter the situation and the dynamic with this friendship group in Shanghai? Maybe in boarding school or these other situations in the US, there was more context, but were you surprised or were you're not at all surprised to experience what you experienced once you got into Shanghai?

CC: I think...a little bit surprised, but mostly I was surprised at myself. I think a lot of that is also anger with me for just kinda falling asleep at the wheel with a lot of this stuff for so long and just not demanding that it be more of an issue with my friendships and being a little bit more vocal about the instances of racism I actually experienced. Because you get so used to minimizing everything when you go through things like that, because you don't wanna be difficult, you don't wanna strain your friendships, so you kind of do it as like a knee-jerk reaction almost. 

STORY CLIP 3

Clemon Courtney III: But you know, life has a way of changing facts. So it forced me to have to send money home, and at the same time, it forced him to be desperate enough to hire me because he was looking for a really talented English writing teacher/manager for his Pudong branch.

For me, it was a no-brainer. Even if it did mean having to work with the racist, ‘'cause to be honest, a lot of jobs do. I fucking killed that job. But...that job...it killed me. Can you imagine being a talented black teacher and your boss tells you the parents won't like it if you hire other black teachers? Can you imagine smashing sales targets for a man who calls you a ‘darky’?

So what would you do, right? Well, I'll tell you what I did. I tried to ignore this mother fucker the best I could. I helped myself to some of his higher paying clients, and now I own my own education company, but I couldn't go through all that and not become more aware of my blackness and how I had minimized it for white comfort.

I have been so silent about all of my interactions with this mother fucker and the least I could do was share this rage with my friends. And from them, I received perfunctory reactions of disapproval and feigned shock like,”I can't believe he would...” But I had never got any firm rejection of this mother fucker’s anti-blackness, no resounding shun. And it hits me: do my friends know that they're hypocrites? How can they justify shunning a racist who says, “Well, I just don't like black people” and embracing and befriending and maintaining a friendship with somebody who try to dehumanize me? 

Clara Davis: Clemon had come to terms with the tepid response that the friendship group he counted himself a part of, was unable to draw the line with someone who was actively spouting racist sentiments. Shanghai’s a small place, and part of the strong reactions around this story boils down to the fact that some of the characters involved in it are still here and heard that Clemon had written and spoken about it publicly. I wanted to know more about the fall out with Clemon’s group of friends and what compelled him to finally put this story on paper. 

INTERVIEW

Clara Davis: Did this mother fucker hear this story to your knowledge? 

Clemon Courtney III: Well, I had already blocked him on all social media, cut all ties with that guy. So I'm not particularly interested if he read it or not. I know for a fact that he at least heard about it, because a lot of the people who maintained friendships with him, messaged me and they were like, “I'm so sorry.”

So I'm sure they at least brought it up that this piece had been written so that was nice to hear. But I also take those apologies with a grain of salt, because these are the same people who are like, "Oh you know, he's really racist.” But they never seemed like they were calling him out on it. They were always putting it on me to just deal with it.

CD: What about that group of friends? I mean, have you rectified relationships with any of them or have you...?

CC: Well, there are two friends that that piece is more directly about who still live in Shanghai...well one in Shanghai, one in Hong Kong, actually. But we were still part of the same core group and I didn't tell them that I was writing that piece or publishing it, so I kind of blind side of them, but that was also kind of intentional. One of them I haven't talked...the one in Shanghai I haven’t talked to at all, and the one in Hong Kong recently sent me a message right before Christmas vacation and was like, “Oh, hello.” So I responded, but I kept it pretty brief, because I'm not really interested in making them comfortable with starting a friendship with me again, unless they're going to address the issues that I outline.

CD: Do you feel like the close friends you had and had made at the time you published the Medium piece were surprised to read that piece from you?

CC: The close friends in Shanghai who the piece are more about or my friends in general?

CD: In general. 

CC: Yes, they were, particularly the parts about...I think there's something about a slur that really gets people to like, "Oh my God.” I don't know if you remember when I told the story and I kept that part in the written version and the spoken version, but the part where I said that he called me a ‘darky’. People audibly gasped in the room when I said that, because I feel like that kind of racism, people are just shocked by, that somebody would do that to a person, but I can pretty much assure you that every black person has been called a ‘nigger; or a ‘darky’ at some point by a non-black person in a hateful way. At some point, we all have “the story” - the time we were called...you know. 

CD: So you think people in general are much more comfortable with the micro-aggressions form of racism than actually being confronted by?

CC: Yeah, definitely, 'cause I had a few friends, mostly white friends, be like, “I can't believe that happened to you.” And it's always like, “You seem so happy-go-lucky.” I'm like, "Well, I...I can't internalize it.” 

CD: What’s the option? 

CC: Yeah. 

CD: If your friends were surprised to read that piece, to a certain extent, that meant that you hadn't been vocal about those feelings or those dynamics with them. What actually prompted you to take pen to paper?

CC: To be honest, there was a transition over a few years that happened when you start reading all these stories about black people being gunned down, falsely imprisoned. You can't...I mentioned that in the piece also...you can't really sit through a lot of these stories of people who are like you going through these things, while a lot of your white friends are completely silent, because it makes them uncomfortable or for whatever reason, right? So after a few years, two, three years of absorbing these stories and thinking to myself, Why am I even...what am I getting out of being quiet about this? Am I even friends with people who actually understand me, the way I would like to be understood?  

So I think that was the main issue, because I felt like they never correctly addressed the fact that they maintained a relationship with this person who tried to dehumanize me, and they felt like I was just supposed to get over it. That's the feeling I had. They were just like, "Oh well, you know, Clem will be Clem, and he'll just deal with it like he normally does.” I wanted to show, no, fuck you. I don't have to deal with shiit. You deal with this. So that's really what prompted it.

CD: You’re talking a lot about seeing unjust things and kind of calling people to change, you're calling people to action. Is that a hard thing to feel and juggle when you're living in a place like Shanghai, and is writing a way to deal with that? 

CC: Yeah, writing is always kind of like my way to work through a lot of different conflicting emotions or thoughts. I think it's hard to see some of the things that happened here and not want to comment on them. I think writing is definitely one of the most powerful tools to bring about change, which is why you can't read certain books or yeah, certain writers are banned or blocked or censored or jailed or all over the world, right? So, if writing wasn't a powerful tool, then...

CD: Nobody would feel threatened by it. 

CC: Absolutely, absolutely.

CD: To some people, I think they just took the opening line and the final line very literally and felt like, Clemon on stage is telling me he will never be my friend.

CC: Yes, haha. 

CD: How would you respond to or engage with people who took that away from the story?

CC: Have you ever seen guys interact, where one guy has his arm around the other guy’s shoulder, they're walking together and he just suddenly gut punches him real quick, playfully but a little hard. And the guy's like, "Oh” and then he's like, "Oh It's okay, walk it off.” That's the reaction I would like just for them to be like, "Oh I'm not that hurt...”

CD: Okay.
CC: “I'm not that hurt.” Like come on, if that hurt you, imagine what it's like to be a black and deal with this shit, right? Like, come on, you’ll be fine. You just have to sit through this for 11 minutes. You're good, you can't be that hurt. Move on. And do better. That's what I would like the reaction to be like. Man, think about the times you've put your friends of color in that situation and never even considered their feelings. Just so, “Oh well, you know, okay, they'll be fine.” Yeah, we will be fine. But that's not really the measure of you being a good friend. 

CD: Yeah, no thanks to you.

CC: Yeah, exactly. So that would be a reaction that I would hope for, 'cause any time you put pen to paper, it's an act of hope. You hope people read your words and do better.

STORY CLIP 4

I had a lot of conversations with my friends for three years, because it's hard to walk away from a meaningful relationship, but after three years, you just...you get tired. So finally, we arrive at what I didn't know then was the last conversation.

And one of my white friends is sitting across from me at a bar, not unlike the one where our friendships started. And he shrugs at me, “Well, I don't think I'm gonna be able to give you what you're expecting.” And at this point, I've gone from not demanding much of white people to not expecting much of white people, so I ask him, “Oh yeah, and what is that?” And he says, "I think you're expecting me to stop being friends with them.” So I say to my friend of 10 years, “Actually, I don't expect anything from you, except for you to be who you are.”

And that is why I can no longer accept applications for white friends.

Clara Davis: Clemon’s relationship with that friend changed that night, and it set off a new course for him in his relationships in the city and with the city. It also initiated a process of self-reflection that affects how he carries himself and how he approaches friendship.

Clem’s story had ripple effects on so many people who heard it, and we think it's a perfect example of the power of storytelling. At the end of our conversation. I spoke with Clem about the hopeful side of his writing.

INTERVIEW 

Clara Davis: I knew we'd be friends 'cause of that hug. 

Clemon Courtney III: Right? Haha. Like see, not all of you guys are bad. 

CD: “Look, I’m hugging this super white girl.”

CC: I have white friends. Come on, how bad could I be? I told one of my friends I wouldn't say that the door is closed completely to white people, but it's like there's a key. You gotta work it, right? You can’t expect...

CD: Figure out how to open this door. 

CC: Absolutely, absolutely. There's a key at the bottom of the door. You jiggle the handle a bit. It just may unlock if you put enough effort in, right? So yeah. 

CD: Yeah, fair enough. You say that putting a pen to paper in an act of hope. Same with putting a mouth to a microphone? 

CC: Definitely, definitely, but whenever you're trying to... hopefully, if you're trying to make people uncomfortable, that's where growth happens. It doesn't happen if I just say, "Well you're trying.” It's like, are you though? Are you trying in the ways that your friends of color need you to try right,'cause we probably need you to try harder. Stories are very powerful things, so Unravel for me mostly...it means power.

So for example, you were nice enough to come to my class at NYU, Shanghai to give a talk about the power of storytelling. You shared the story of a Chinese man named Hanting, who...the title of this story was “Proud” and the main idea of his story was he was proud to be gay, but he was also proud to have a Chinese family, even though they were a little traditional and didn't accept his homosexuality. So you shared that story with my class and shortly after you left, I had them write responses to what you’d shared, and two of the students in class felt really empowered and supported enough to actually say that they were gay in writing and say that his story really resonated with them, and they talked about their experiences with their own families and how they felt like they couldn't tell but that they felt some sense of strength and support just reading that story. So I think that's the power of Unravel. It shows that we may all be unique, but we're not alone, we all have similar experiences.

CD: Yeah, honestly I could not, I could not handle it when you told me that the next day. That was probably one of the nicest and most special things anyone has ever said to me. 

CC: And it was really cool to... number one, that you came all the way to Pudong to share.

CD: It’s not that far. 

CC: Yeah, it's farther than a lot of people would travel for free. And the payoff for that moment was excellent.

CD: That was so interesting, because I didn't really know what to expect. Of course, you briefed me on as much information as you had, but I didn't really know what to expect going into that class. First of all, I was so struck by...I mean I thought all those students were super insightful and really engaged to a level that I wasn't expecting.

CC: Yeah. 

CD: It was interesting because we had them read the story, and then we did a little bit of a group discussion and a couple of people said some really interesting things I remember, but nobody got really into it. And by the time I left, I was like that was really fun. Those kids were so bright  and really engaged. Don't know if they connected with the story, but I had a great time and I was so glad Clemon asked me. And then the next morning, you sent me that WeChat message and I just started crying. It was so incredible. 

CC: And because the two students who wrote it had asked if they could email it to me personally, instead of sharing it with the class, and I said, “Yeah okay sure.” And so that's why the next morning, I told you, 'cause I hadn't read it until that night. 

CD: And I haven't actually had the opportunity to tell Hanting about that story yet.

CC: Yeah, I'm sure he’d love to hear that. 

CD: Yeah, I didn't really wanna tell him on Wechat. I really wanna get the chance to tell him in person, but I mean I can't even imagine how that would make him feel.

CC: Yeah,

CD: I think that's a good segue for me to ask you. Clemon, is there a motto that you live by?

CC: Yes, absolutely. My motto is: run towards fear, not away from it. So I was...you know, we always live in fear. So for myself as an example, I was afraid when I wrote the piece originally that because I was so rusty, that it wouldn't be any good and even after it got really big response on social media, I was afraid when the opportunity to do Unravel came, that I couldn't talk in front of 100 plus people and tell this story live, and I was so nervous, I didn't eat the day. Couldn’t even keep food down, couldn't look at food. Yeah, I was super nervous and very scared that I was gonna mess something up, and yeah, even after all that, you're always...you have this fear, right? All the time, that you're not gonna be good enough, that you're just not enough, and that you're not doing enough. So I did Unravel, because I was scared shitless to do Unravel. 

CD: I love that. 

CC: Yeah, I was terrified, so I was like, “Okay, now you have to do it.” 'Cause that's my motto. Now whenever you're afraid, you have to do it.

CD: I love that.

CC: Yeah, but it's scary. 

CD: And for the record, you appeared to be a total natural. It shocks me to hear that you were that scared or that starving at the time, because even when I was listening back to the story, you don't feel that fear, for sure, as an audience member.

CC: Really? Well, I'm happy to hear that 'cause you know, speaking of fear, I'm afraid to go back and watch it, 'cause I feel like all I'm gonna see is the mistakes. So I haven't seen anything since I actually did the storytelling so...

CD: Well, I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

CC: Okay, yeah, it should be exciting.

CD: I'm so glad you came in and talked to us, Clemon. Thanks for sharing more about your story and about this story. I'm really glad we got the opportunity to talk about it. 

CC: Well, thank you for having me. I had a blast. 

CD: A special thanks to Clemon Courtney III for sharing his story with us. Today's episode featured clips from his story, but you can listen to the full version at www.unravelstorytelling.com. This podcast is produced and edited by Sarah Boorboor with original music and post-production by Ricardo Valdez. We're recording in the Nowness studio in the city where there's a McDonald's on almost every corner these days, Shanghai. I'm your host and the founder of Unravel, Clara Davis. Thanks for being a part of our story. 

Show Notes: Read Clemon’s original piece Why I’m No Longer Accepting White Applicants For Friendship on Medium.