Transcription Episode 4:

Finding Pride (Justine Hsu)

september 12, 2019

Listen to Justine’s episode (available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Himalaya and Google Play) can hear her full story from our ‘This is Me’ 2018 live show.

Clara Davis: You're listening to Unravel, the podcast, where we go behind and beyond stories featured at our monthly live show. For Shanghai, I'm your host, Clara Davis.

STORY CLIP 1

Justine Hsu: When I came to the realization of my identity, like all the queer folks out there, I was in a phase of confusion and loss and denial. Thought very strongly to myself, there was no way I could be gay. I'm Asian. 

And then yeah, I guess at the time, I couldn't comprehend that I could be this wonderful thing called Gay-sian. And I guess at the time I couldn’t comprehend that the complex city and beauty that comes with having seemingly contrasting identities coexist—essentially what makes you, you. So, I set out on a journey for that. That was how I found Shanghai Pride.

Clara Davis: Today we have Justine Hsu on the podcast, an advocate and storyteller, bubbling over with positive energy and purposeful action. J told a story at our celebration of Pride show, last June to the theme, ‘This is Me.’ In her story, she reflects back on her own journey finding pride in herself and all around her.

In this episode, you'll hear clips from J’s story, along with a conversation between she and I in the studio. Later, we’re joined by Charlene Liu, one of the founders of Shanghai Pride and one of J’s mentors, to talk about the origin of the movement here in Shanghai and their inspiring growth story.

START OF INTERVIEW

Clara Davis: When you say that going to that first Shanghai Pride, you saw what it could be like, what adult life could be like, what were the feelings or fears you had before you went to ShanghaiPRIDE? 

Justine Hsu: The very first ShanghaiPRIDE, I must have been 15 or 16. I had started Shanghai LGBT Youth with some friends. Well, my friends had started first and I joined it and we started organizing this monthly dinners, and we were active on Facebook. I think it was also when Facebook just started becoming a thing, so I really wanted to do more for the community. And then we heard about Shanghai Pride, so that was when we attended. It was really at that moment where I saw...wow, these people are grown-up adults, you know, living grown-up adult lives. They’re with people that understand them and support them and they just happen to be gay, you know. And that was a moment of change for me that someday I could live a life like that and be able to bring my whole self to my family and not having to hide and say and make up an excuse  when she asked me where I was going. 

CD: Before you came out to your mom or your sister, you were already living ‘out.’ You'd started a youth LGBTQ organization in Shanghai. Presumably, you were out to your friends, socially. What was that like, living those two lives?

JH: It didn't take me long to come out to my friends actually, ‘cause I knew they would be very open and accepting and they were. So that part was very easy. And then soon after taking on community roles, for me, I was like, “Oh I found the answer to this.” It was great, but having to live that double life, that was very, very difficult for me. Yes, but I was living ‘out’ long before I came out. My mom was the last person to know.

STORY CLIP 2

Justine Hsu: I was having trouble accepting myself for who I am while I was helping the community gain visibility and confidence. And I thought to myself, enough. I need to come out to my mom. So I decided to come out before...'cause I was gonna move out for college so I decided I needed to come out...come out before move out. It sounded so nice to me. So I waited and waited and waited for the perfect moment and when it finally came, it took me and my mom both by surprise.

So what happened was I was out one afternoon hanging out with a friend and then she called me. She said, "You need to come home right now. Meet me in the compound and I don't want anyone to hear this.” 

I was like, “What the hell?” 

I had no idea what it could be, so I went and I went to see her, and she goes, “I need you to be completely honest with me. Completely honest.”

It’s like, “Okay, what the hell...what is...I’ve never heard her sound this serious ever.”

And then she goes, “Do you have a boyfriend?”

“No.”

“Have you ever had a boyfriend?”

“No.”

And then she goes, "Well how do you explain this?” And then she pulls out a receipt, and it was a receipt for condoms.

So that was when I told her, I said, “It couldn't possibly be mine, because I don't do that.”

And she didn't take it well, to say the least. I think she would preferred I admit to buying condoms than being gay. At least you’re being saved, but it got really messy. I literally ran away from her, and I stayed at a friend's place. I didn't go to school, and we didn't talk about it. And eventually, when I finally went home, it was like nothing had happened.

We did what all Chinese families do best—sweeping things under the rug and pretend nothing happen. 

INTERVIEW

CD: Shortly after this confrontation, J headed off to Canada for college, putting a lot of time and distance between herself and her mom and the revelation neither of them wanted to address. It went on like this for two years until J felt she had to reach out and her mom was right there.

Do you think that that condom conversation with your mom outside your apartment complex...do you think that that forced a conversation that you were planning to have or weren't planning to have for a while still?

JH: It was like it was fate, now that I think of it, because I was 18 at a time and I was leaving. It was the summer I was leaving for a college. For me, at that point on, I would never, ever live with her again. If I leave for college, I only would come back and start working and start living a different life. To me, that was a point of departure, so I told myself I’m gonna tell her that summer, but I couldn't do it. And I told my sister first and there were tears, but she was super sweet, and I thought, great, this is awesome.

I had planned, okay maybe a week before...two weeks before, it's gonna be before I leave. It’s gonna be summer. It's gonna be great. Summer...like the good weather is going to help.

CD: I can I see that connection. 

JH: But it didn’t happen. She just found it, she just found a receipt. 

CD: How did that conversation go with your sister? What was your relationship with her like growing up, and what changed when you guys had to have that conversation?

JH: Oh, we didn't like each other. We didn't like each other when we were growing up. It was like friendly sibling rivalry. There was a lot of big sister bullying and then in high school we became best friends, so that was when it happened.

She said she never had a clue, but she would ask my mom when we were having dinners, and she was just like, "Oh what if...what happens...what if Justine brings a girl home?” So I thought she knew. I thought she had an idea, but she was just joking around, I guess. 

CD: Was there a significant shift for you once you'd had that conversation with your mom? Did your life change? Did the way you were living your life change, or was it just more of a relief? What was... 

JH: It was a relief, honestly. And with all the negativity that happened that came after, for me, it was still like a rock. It was a relief, and that's why I feel very, very lucky, and I tell my friends around me that, you know, it does get better. Because my mom, she was just a regular, regular old mom, born and raised in Taiwan. And she wasn't mad liberal. She wasn't radical. She just really, really, really, really, really love us. She just really love us. And being able to bring herself to confront her...not her deepest fear because it wasn't existing. It was just something unimaginable for her, completely out of her realm of reality. And being able to confront that and accept that and now being completely supportive of it and feeling totally natural about my relationships if I bring up my girlfriend, she's completely supportive of it.  She makes lunch for us. She asks me how I'm doing and she asks how she's doing.

Working with Shanghai Pride, a lot of my friends around me...it's a really visceral reminder that things are not that easy for other people, and especially in China, when I look around, conversion therapy is alive and well. And we see a lot of fake marriages happen where a gay person and a lesbian would marry, so they could deal with the societal pressures and expectations in the family expectations of having a kid. That still happens, and trans rights is nowhere to be seen. So this is just my experience on a very individual and granular level that I'm doing okay, but seeing that this is a privilege that I have, but it should be...everyone should be able to have that, especially when we look at different cities.

Shanghai is a very tier-one city. But when we look at other places, they don't have the same resources or knowledge or communities that we have. And that...we're really grateful that being an international city, we have a lot of sponsors, a lot of community support, a lot of goodwill coming from partners and people from the community. But cities that lack that...they really need our being able to share our knowledge or even just radiating that energy...let them know that there’s support here and spreading that network. And that's what really our mission is to nurture those communities and to mobilize them.

STORY CLIP 3

Justine Hsu: I started dating this wonderful girl, and she had came out to her Korean family, and it went really badly as well. Her family demanded to meet me and I was freaking out. I didn't know what to do and I called the only person I could for help. When you're so desperate the only person you go to is your mom. So I called her, and before I dialed that number, I was so nervous, I didn't know was how she was gonna take it, if she was still trying to fix me, or if she had accepted it, so I called her and that was when she told me that after I had gone to college, she struggled so much with having a gay daughter that she went to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist told her that I didn't needed fixing. And what needed fixing was the society that made her think I needed fixing.

And that was when she told me, “I realized that...I came to the realization that you and your people are already such a lonely and vulnerable bunch. You wake up every day...have to fight the society every day for being who you are and loving who you are and I can't join their side too, I can't be on their side against you, because you're my daughter. And since then, everything's been great.

People often overlooked how good they have it, because it seems to come so easy. You know like how my mom, she makes dinner for me, packs lunch box for me and my girlfriend, or she asks if my gay friends need gay pancakes for fundraising for Shanghai Pride, because there's gay pancakes and straight pancake. And like people are always so surprised that I have such a great open-minded mom, because they know what kind of...like a very conventional Taiwanese family I come from. And I get reminded repeatedly over and over. And yes, yes, my mom is pretty fucking rad.

She is pretty awesome. And so it means so much for me that I can stand here and share with you this story. And this year is the 10th year of Shanghai Pride. This year, for the last event of Shanghai Pride, we brought it back to Cotton’s where it all began. And as I was standing there in the middle of the courtyard watching everything unfold, it was kind of the same scene people enjoying themselves in the company of their loved ones.

And I realized...I kind of did it. I was having a day job that I love and working a gay job I love even more. And  in a really great relationship with an incredible person. Shoutout to my girlfriend right there. And living a really open and honest life.

So I hope all of you, like me, even if you are struggling with your identity, you come to finally understand and be able to grasp and embrace the beauty and the complexity in all and everything that makes you, you.

Thank you. 

Clara Davis: J’s story lit up the room at our Pride show last year with a message that still gives me goosebumps. I have so much admiration for her and the rest of the Shanghai Pride team who put in so much time, energy, and passion into advocating for equality, acceptance, and the space to be whoever you are and allow others to do the same. I asked J about what drives or as an activist and as a human being.

INTERVIEW

CD: I think that there are some of us that are so much more inclined to advocacy and action than others. And I'm just curious whether there are other areas in your life that you've been as involved, as passionate, and as vocal as you have with the LGBTQ movement in Shanghai.

JH: I think this community support or however you call this extracurricular thing has always kind of been part of who I am, that I just wanted to do a bit more and help out a bit more, but right now, right now, I wanna put my full attention in Pride. And I'm trying to kind of consciously not add more things on my plate just so I can focus on this and really bring this to a bigger scale as much as possible.

CD: I like what you said, that you don't have a motto, but that sentiment that your friends shared with you that you try to apply.

JH: Yes, yeah, so it’s more borrowed wisdom. She has the same personality as I am. We're both like the go-getters and that we tend to bite more than we can chew. Yes, that’s the order.  And she said this to me one day...she said, "Well if you ever feel guilty about not doing something or you...quote unquote supposed to do, just ask yourself this question...that does it give you energy or does it take away energy?”

So, if it gives me energy, then I'm going to do it and commit to it and bring my whole attention and self there. And another thing that I'm trying to live by is something I forget where I read it, but Iove is the quality of attention you pay to things. 

Yes, let that sink in for a second. So yeah and I find myself get really like...get caught up in things and I get very impatient with people around me or things that I'm doing and I lose focus, but when I really think about it, if I feel passionate and real and this thing means something to me, I should pay the best quality of attention to it...bring my whole heart into it.

CD: Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us, I'm really excited to bring Charlene and continue the conversation. 

This year. Shanghai Pride celebrated 11 years of advocacy and action in Shanghai, more than a decade of growing and supporting a community of individuals, friends, families, and allies who share the same hope for love and acceptance no matter how they identify.

Now we're joined by Charline Liu, one of Shanghai Pride’s founders who came into the studio to talk to us about the issues and opportunities facing the LGBTQ community in Shanghai and wider China, how Shanghai pride has evolved over the years, and their hopes and outlook for the future.

Welcome Charlene to the conversation. Thank you so much for joining this episode of the podcast

Charlene Liu: Thank you for having me.

CD: Yay, and thanks for sticking around J. 

JH: Of course. 

CD: I first wanted to ask you just about the origin of Shanghai Pride. When did it get started? What was your role then, and what is your role now?

CL: You know Shanghai Pride...it has become a festival. It’s been...this is our 11th Festival coming up in June. But when we started, it was really a group of friends getting together to network, and we kinda really...kind of stumble upon it.

I came in 2005, didn't know anybody back then. Somehow...well I like drinking and partying. I met friends through that and then we realized, oh we are part of the same community...the LGBTQ community, so we started organizing various events, like film screenings, shopping, going for badminton, swimming, and of course, house parties and other parties. 

Fast forward to 2009, a few of our friends were leaving Shanghai, we thought, let's throw a big party. You know what, put all the events that we have ever done together in the past few years, and we call it Shanghai Pride. It started actually as a social event. We thought we were gonna do it for only one year. However, after that, we had so many friends coming out and say that we made a difference or the events made a difference. They found the partners. They came out to their parents, their families, their friends, and that really motivated us to continue doing it. And last year, I wanted to take a step back and let the younger generation, like J here take over, but there's so much that I have put in it, and it's so much I've gotten from it...that it was really difficult to let go. For example, through Shanghai Pride, I came out. I started to accept myself and I was more confident in telling people that I'm gay and I met my wife during Shanghai Pride. It's given me so much. I really want to continue giving it back.

CD: So in 2005, when you said that you were starting to plan things and it was kind of a social purpose at the beginning, were you not seeing anything else being organized or space made for LGBTQ people in Shanghai in 2005?

CL: There were a few things happening. We have seen local organizations. They have some forums going on and there were little parties here and there. Back then, maybe not such big clubs that existed. 

JH: Very underground, right? 

CD: Very underground. Of course, we had to know where to go to find places and where to go to find people, but I see the really big differences. 10, 11 years ago, there weren’t that many small groups or organizations related to LGBTQ, but right now there's so many, and if you go to other cities in this country you see so many that are talking about LGBTQ coming out, workplace acceptance, how to start a family.

So, big difference there. And also with businesses and partners, right? Back then, nobody knew what Pride is and nobody dared to come on and say, "Yeah I’ll support. I'll give you a venue.” But now, even before Pride starts, you have businesses, you have partners coming and say, "Hey when’s the next...what are you guys doing? When is the next Pride? We wanna be part of it. How can we help?”

CD: This is something that a lot of individuals and their families and friends and allies have been aware of and considered for a long time, but how do you feel...like what's your assessment right now of public discourse...public opinion in China towards LGBTQ people rights, discrimination, etc. 

CL: You know, the good thing about living in China is, there are no policies right now against the LGBTQ community; however, there are also no policies that protect LGBTQ communities, so we are in the gray area. It's kind of good, it's kind of bad, but we want to keep it positive.

I myself find that...I’ve lived in the U.S. Malaysia, Singapore...I find China to be more tolerant than any other places that I lived in, right? My wife and I can go out, we can hold our hands, we can sometimes give a little hug, and we don't feel threatened or afraid; whereas sometimes if  I go back to my home country, she tries to hold my hand like I'm freaking out, like you’re gonna get me arrested. Yeah, so but I also find that people here, they'll also more tolerant. They'll see something that they have not seen before. They'll look curious, but it's not like they'll look at you with hatred. 

JH: I'm not sure about tolerance. I think it's...it's tolerant out of apathy and more of a genuine or like a benign curiosity, you know what I mean? Yeah, a lot of times I find it... it's quite a very Chinese mentality almost that—I see it, I don't like it, but I don't care.

Yeah, so in a sense, that makes it almost more challenging for us...to kind of mobilize and help raise awareness and visibility. So Ilke 10 years ago, when Shanghai Pride just started, it was very much just within our own community, in our own underground bars, in our own little bubble. And of course, as we step out more, we’re trying to gain mainstream awareness, mainstream support. And that apathy, the pressure comes back and we know that a lot of people...they don't care about it. They don't see why is there a significance, why do I have to support it. There's no violence against LGBTQ, so there's no need, but that doesn't mean there's no need to be on an equal playing ground here.

CL: Well, yes, that is true as well. But I also see it as an opportunity, right? The curiosity...some people are really bold. They were like, "Oh okay, wait, I don't understand. You guys are married, so can you tell me more?”

That is when the raising awareness, the visibility is there, which is good. That's why I say, you know, we're in a gray area. So opportunities are there. Of course, challenges are there too, but we don't see the challenges as in it's such a backlash. It's not so aggressive. If we can just slowly push the envelope, push the boundaries, I think the visibility will get bigger, and we'll have more opportunities to create awareness.

CD: What are some of the other organizations that are working in China that you think are really important in advancing advocacy and tolerance?

CL: Oh, I tell you, parents...parents’ voices are the most powerful. I mean, sometimes I’m scared of my mom too. 

CD: Aren't we all?

CL: And so PFLAG China, they're amazing. I really have to give them a lot of credit, because first of all, being parents...they have to accept their kids for coming out, and then they have to accept themselves. They have to help themselves to tell their families. They have a lot of responsibilities. It’s not easy, but to see moms and dads actually manning the hotlines, talking with other parents, consoling them, encouraging them, just speaking with them, talking with their own families, and talking on stage about what they have gone through. First of all, it’s emotionally like a big thing.

JH: It's so heart-warming every time.

CL: But it is so heartwarming, yes. So they are doing an amazing job. They have chapters, I think, all over China right now, like 50 chapters. 

JL:  And PFLAG stands for?

CL: Parents and family for gays and lesbians.

JL: Just for the audience. 

CD: I think one of the favorite stories we've ever, ever had at a show, was the same show that you told a story at, J. When Being and his father from PFLAG...and his father shared his story, translated live by Bing, who's also a fantastic translator, I mean...

JL: With his footnotes. I loved it, yeah. 

CD: He had his own signs to make his own commentary. Yeah, and I thought that was such a powerful opportunity and example, and I think it wasn't just me who...that was one of my favorite stories I've ever had in the stage. I think so many people in the audience were so struck by that.

Yeah, so I do think I imagine...I mean I think PFLAG as an organization around the world is important, but especially in the Chinese context, given the social and familial structure.

CL: Yeah, normally the PFLAG Conference, which is normally held during Pride season, they are the most well-attended. You have a few hundred people coming in, actually even from other parts of China outside of Shanghai. 

JL: Children and parents and friends.

CL: Yes, and lots of the paper. It's so much crying. It’s so touching, but it's good in a way that you see families actually supporting their kids...

JL: Unconditionally. Yeah, it’s so great. 

CL: Supporting the LGBTQ community. 

CD: How does Shanghai Pride plug into or connect with other festivals, organizations, Pride movements around the world.

CL: We started an outreach team a few years ago, so we have volunteers actually talking with, connecting with, emailing other Prides around the world. We started with London Pride, and then we got connected with Sydney Mardi Gras, Taiwan Pride of course, and our friends in Hong Kong who run Pink Dot, Pink Alliance. I think we are very well connected to other prides around the world, around the region. And in 2015, we became one of the founding members of APQFFA, which is Asia Pacific Queer Film Festival Alliance.

CD: So I'm interested a little bit in the evolution of the festival when these really visible and memorable pillars, such as the bike ride and the run, became a part of the program. How has the festival grown over the years?

CL: So in 2009, when we first started, we really started with the film screenings, and throughout the years, it really depends on the volunteers, right? Whoever is interested in certain events, they come in and say, “I wanna do this, and I need how many volunteers, and I need help planning.” So we do whatever we can. We do events that volunteers are interested in, because after all, volunteers live in Shanghai. We are either foreigners or local Chinese. But it's really about what we want to see, what we want to learn, how we wanna grow. So the run came about in 2013. One of our volunteers, she was saying, "I like to run. Why wouldn't anybody wanna run? It's easy to plan, and the cost is low.”

Of course ‘run’ means being outside, and since we couldn't have a parade, we thought, okay maybe ‘run’ will represent one of the outdoor events. We thought about, of course, we need to be careful. We needed to think about safety. We needed to think about how officials will perceive this as. So a lot of planning went into that. We were also very scared. We were doing it...the first year, what we did was, we had about 100 sign-ups, but it was a rainy day. However 70 over people turned out, so it was really encouraging. What we did was, we separated ourselves...this group into groups of 10 or 20, so we ran separately from one park to another park. And since it was our 5th anniversary, we decided, okay, we know what, we can run about five kilometers, not too short, not too long. That's what we did. And it was then, at the very end of the route that my wife ran in. That’s the first time I met her. 

JL: They literally ran into each other. 

CL: She ran into my life. 

JL: She ran into your life. 

CL: And so, we thought it was very successful, that event. And we decided to continue doing it because again, it's visible. And last year, we celebrated the 10th Shanghai Pride. We got the ending point on ground level of in the heart of the city, so there was a lot of visibility. We had media from...we had foreign presses come in. We were covered in Time Magazine, so that's like the highlight of Pride.

CD: But there's clearly the energy for it.

JL: And the community loves it, both in and out.

CD: I think that a lot of people outside of China might be surprised by how visible ShanghaiPRIDE actually is. I wonder if you can tell us about, I mean, any issues or obstacles you guys have faced over the last 10 years trying to grow it?

CL: For sure, in the very beginning, even myself, I've never been to any other Pride, except Shanghai Pride. So in the beginning, a lot of people didn’t know about it. Businesses didn’t know about it. Officials didn’t know what it was. So there were a lot of questions, a lot of challenges, like why are you doing this? You cannot do this. Or they won't tell us directly that we couldn’t do some things. They will tell the venues not to host certain events, but I think over the years, everybody realized that we are not trying to cause trouble. We are trying to raise awareness, create some visibility, and a little bit about education on what LGBTQ means, who we are, that we are also people. We're the same like you, same like everybody else, except the people that we love are different. 

However, having said that, because of challenges, we also became very creative on how we organize our events. For example, we cannot organize run for 200 people at the same time, so what we do is, we just group ourselves to separate ourselves to groups of 20. Maybe run from different starting points and meet at the same place, instead of running from the same place back to the same place. And of course, every time you plan an event, we have a plan A, plan B, sometimes CDE. So it keeps us busy that way, but it also keeps us on our toes.

CD: Right. You don't have to answer this and don't have to put it on it, but I'm just personally...is Shanghai Pride officially sanctioned? Do you guys have to deal with officials in the planning process every year?

CL: So ShanghaiPRIDE is...we call ourselves a community platform. We are really not an organization. I know we know a lot of organizations that register themselves as a company, but that means that you need to full-time staff, you need to pay tax, you just set up a structure, okay? All of us here are volunteers, so we don't do this full-time, although it does feel like a full-time job doesn’t it?  

JL: It does. 

CL: So we don't have full-time staff. We don't have an office. And wherever, whoever can host a meeting for us...well, that will be our meeting space for the day. Having said that, we do have corporations also that do work with us to help us with paperwork, documentation, that sort of stuff. We have a legal advisor on the site that does legal reviews for us, documentation as well.

CD: And last year, at our June show, actually it was Charlene, who nominated you as tribute, as you say..

JH: She volunteered me as tribute to do a story. 

CD: To tell a story at the show, which was an excellent choice on her part, but what was it about J or her story that made you feel like she was the one who needed to get up on the stage, Charlene? 

CL: Well, you invited us. And we were like, okay, let us just find you a volunteer, and we thought, wait when you tell a story, it’s got to be a story from back then until now. And my story, I think it’s a little bit too old. So we thought we need new blood. We need a fresh face. 

And you had the history because you were first...you came as a participant and then you became a leader, so there was...there is growth, and you can see the changes and people need that, you know. Some people have only been here less than 10 years, but they didn't see...and some have been here more than 10 years, but they didn't see the beginning of Pride. They probably seen the Pride that was last year. So, we need someone to tell the story on how it has changed.

CD: You guys have done quite a lot in 10 years. 

JH: Yeah, you can say it's been quite a ride. 

CD: It’s pretty remarkable. I guess I have one more question for you, Charlene. When you came to Shanghai originally, could you ever have imagined getting on the roller coaster that you've been driving that Shanghai Pride has become?

CL: I never imagined that I would be part of something called Shanghai Pride, that I would meet amazing friends, allies such as you guys, and of course, coming out and meeting my wife. This is like the most important of my journey in Shanghai. 

I really hope more people can experience this, that what I have gone through with ShanghaiPRIDE. I'm really happy to see every year, so many volunteers coming onboard, saying why they wanna do certain things. That's really...it feels so...I wanna cry. And J knows it. Every time I say this story, I just wanna...

JH: Cries every year.

CL: I know! Okay, I'm not going to today.

CD: You can cry. It's a safe space to cry.

CL: It’s getting communities together...support each other. It’s just what, I know it's cliche, but we need to make the world a better place, and I hope this will make the world a better place.

JH: Ever since I attended ShanghaiPRIDE, I knew, yeah, I knew I wanted to help out. And it would get only get better. It will only get better. I'm very, very positive. 

CL: That's good, and that's also another big change I've seen, right? The younger generation, people like J...their generation, the generation after theirs, they are more open to...all out for doing things that are good, right? So I’m really encouraged. 

JH: And I see our volunteers, and they're quite a bit...some of them are very, very young and they're so passionate, they're so optimistic, and all they wanna do is help out, and it's really encouraging. They just wanna give everything...very hopeful. 
I'm so glad that you guys both have taken the time to come in and talk to us today. Thank you so much, Charlene, for coming and joining...J for telling your story and chatting with us. And yeah, we can't wait to keep watching the incredible work of Shanghai Pride and being as involved and supportive as we can.

JH: Thank you. 

CL: You are our super ally. 

CD: Awesome, thanks guys.

If you'd like to learn more about Shanghai Pride and PFLAG China or find out about how you can support either of them, you can check out their websites at www.shpride.com and and www.pflag.org.cn. You can also find their websites in the show notes for this episode. Another big thank you to Charlene Liu and J. Today's episode featured clips from J’s story, but you can listen to the full version at www.unravel storytelling.com.

This podcast is produced and edited by Sarah Boorboor with original music and post-production by Ricardo Valdez. We're recording in the Nowness studio in the proud city of Shanghai. I'm your host and the founder of Unravel, Clara Davis. Thanks for being a part of our story. 

Next week on Unravel, Lauren Tininenko finds herself in some deep water.

Lauren Tininenko: My shoulders are hurting so bad. I can feel the sun just beating down on me, draining my energy. I swear the waves are getting so much, so much bigger, and I'm just fighting through them. I have put myself through some intense athletic challenges before, and I have never quit one. It will kill me if I have to get on that boat and if I have to give up now.

Show Notes: ShanghaiPRIDE was founded in 2009, as an annual festival to celebrate diversity and to promote acceptance for the LGBTQ community through sports, cultural, educational, and social activities. ShanghaiPRIDE promotes cross-cultural exchange locally as well as with LGBTQ festivals across the globe, to learn more or to find out how to support ShanghaiPRIDE visit their website.

PFLAG China was founded in Guangzhou in 2008 and is an NGO formed by LGBT individuals, their parents, friends and supporters to serve and support LGBTQ+ people.